Curse

enter_the_zone · Jun 16, 2012, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Exactly.

Direct cause and effect on both gameplay and the communities direction and motivations.

You're ignoring the point I was making which is that if you choose not to grind those hours for those titles, you could spend them grinding for the ectos instead. The grind is still entirely optional. It's not like 50/50 or Gwamm is required for anything in-game.

It's not Anet's fault that people are retards. News at 11, people are f**king stupid... always have been, always will be.

JDRyder · Jun 17, 2012, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Imo the only real problem with the game is H/H and the builds people use, mainly due to PvE skills. They should both be removed from the game imo.

Missing HB · Jun 17, 2012, 02:57 PM // 14:57

So, how would players who cannot log on euro evenings be able to do anything ? That's what happens in PvP... all organized formats are empty 90% of the time because of that

If i don't disagree about builds used( although i think it has more to do with the lack of reactivity from IA), heroes/henchs are for sure needed, else the game will get empty and PvE will look like PvP..
Why do we have so many threads called " bring hb back ".. it's not any form of troll or sarcasm, it's just that it's the only format that would be fun and playable today( besides all forms of abuse that can happen in any format)

Ih8Botters! · Jun 17, 2012, 06:02 PM // 18:02

I worry that I will never be able to find a guild that doesn't act like this 24/7:

Skyy High · Jun 18, 2012, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Of course it has.

Choosing to argue the relevancy of grind based purely on aestheic reward just detracts from the actual topic in order to make yourself sound correct.Just a couple of examples of what's changed since the "good old days":

Firstly:Many skill potencies are directly related to repetition of content and grind.You stated as much.I don't care how shiny someone's sword is but I do care if we are using the same skill yet theirs is vastly more effective and potent merely because they repeated the same mission 500 times.

You may right that off as "tiny" or link the mechanic to a one skill example.Many don't.Being subjective about that does'nt change the mechanics involved.

Check the wiki, and come back and tell me which skills require grind to be useful. Even before the recent rebalance, the only example I can think of was SY!, and even that now gives you 4 seconds (out of a max of 6) for simply turning in 2 NM books or 1 HM book. Every other PvE skill is now maxed out by just beating the required campaign in NM, sometimes even before that.

Quote:

Secondly:Many areas, be it PvP or PvE, have preferential treatment based purley on rank/title.Unless you have repeated the same level/PvP area, etc 500 times and have the right tag beneath your name good luck getting into a group or even getting a look in.

How is this ANet's fault, exactly? Rank discrimination (where it exists) exists because there is a huge population of veteran players who aren't interested in teaching new players, they're just interested in doing the content as fast as possible, which means if you're playing with a PUG you need to identify experienced players quickly. This results in rank discrimination, or "show stones", or whatever else. There is precisely one area in the game where rank or title grinding actually has an effect on performance, and that's DoA, and even then you can get to an acceptable rank without what I would call grind. It is, at best, the exception. Blaming ANet for rank discrimination is asinine; players will and have always discriminated, it's just a bigger problem now because the population is so low in some of these PvP modes that it's literally impossible for non-ranked players to get a group together. On the other hand, it's often impossible for ranked players to get a group together...

Quote:

As such reward from grind can be directly related to how a new player is treated/accepted and what areas, levels or PvP they can access.

Both points are imo valid and dictate that...

...is now totally incorrect.

Sure the "old game...all that's left is HoM" is a totally sound argument.It's fact.The point being is what if the game had'nt changed it's philosophy and mechanics in such a way.Anyway I think the tangent is pretty irelevant if you re-read the OP.

Nothing has changed. New players still need to learn the game. That's not "grind", that's just a fact of PUG grouping; I don't want to play with someone who's going to do something stupid and cost me an hour. The only way that that could ever be considered "grind" is if the new player had to grind up some meaningless title in order to ever be excepted in a group, which as I just went over, is only relevant in DoA, HA, and UWSC groups. The first is a design choice that I never really agreed with, the second is only a problem because population density in HA is negligible nowadays, and the third is a completely player-created discrimination policy that has absolutely NOTHING to do with ANet's philosophies, and just goes to prove the point that, even without titles, players will find a way to discriminate against new players. That's not the game's fault, nor is it anything new.

In short, the things you're correct about (new players having trouble getting into PvP or SC groups, DoA groups requiring high LB ranks) are nothing new, they've just been exacerbated by recent population declines. The things you're wrong about (like player power and PvE skills being dependent on grind) you're demonstrably wrong about. People have turned to grinding because there's nothing else to do, not because ANet has been suddenly decided to reward it more. The cosmetic rewards for grinding have always been there, people just care about them more now because they have the time to do so.

Renowned Spartan · Jun 19, 2012, 04:11 PM // 16:11

I used to love getting to a new town and seeing the people you grouped with in the previous town, knowing you both had made it that far. It was rewarding..loved 55 Monks, loved playing Tombs, farming Sorrow's Furnace, and just having a good time with friends staying up late on Ventrilo playing a blood spike in HoH. Seeing people advertise for a run in Droknar's Forge to bipass waiting to get that new shiny armor.

Never again will I have the same amount of fun that I had here.

fireflyry · Jun 29, 2012, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Check the wiki, and come back and tell me which skills require grind to be useful.

I never said "useful".I said "effects skill potency".Again your re-wording my comments to suit your rebuttal.

There are a fair few used in PVE be it for general play, especially in certain hero builds like "discordway" for example, or for farming builds, especially for build genres like tankers or runners, which involve repetition of content to maximise potency and overall effectiveness of said builds.

Going into skill by skill analysis is merely delving into semantics.

I totally agree things are much better since the update but that does'nt change the fact that for several years grind had a direct relationship to PvE skill potency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

How is this ANet's fault, exactly?.

I never said it was Anet's fault.It's basic human physcology that if you introduce a hierarchical structure to a game you will get sub-classes and discrimination.The point is at release and for several years afterwards, especially before titles, this was not the case.Not only that it was what bought many to the game originally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

People have turned to grinding because there's nothing else to do, not because ANet has been suddenly decided to reward it more.

So people grind for fun?Ok then.

Theres heaps to do in this game.It all changed with HOM and titles.That's the point.

Again my friend, I suggest a re-read of the OP.It's not about "right/wrong".It's about discussing why and how the change and focus happened to the game."Nothing more to do...." just totally avoids the topic and kills discussion.